tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4704664917418794835.post4558182366109091819..comments2023-07-01T05:41:30.469-07:00Comments on Headius: The Elephantheadiushttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15717357218364947795noreply@blogger.comBlogger50125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4704664917418794835.post-66022375814362410382008-09-05T01:43:00.000-07:002008-09-05T01:43:00.000-07:00Keep on the good work with jRuby! Don't allow ...Keep on the good work with jRuby! Don't allow anyone to let you down, you're doing an invaluable job for the ruby community. Ruby really needs a stable, fast and reliable implementation, and jRuby is the only one that comes into my mind considering these characteristics. I have a message, a proposal for those who rant about having not-so-rubyist quality jruby codes: make them better! Invent nice wrappers. If you have time to rant about code quality all the time, you should have the time to write better codes to replace them.Ochronushttp://ochronus.hunoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4704664917418794835.post-6950409445348263952008-09-05T02:05:00.000-07:002008-09-05T02:05:00.000-07:00Well said. Too much 'Deathstar services' k...Well said. <br><br>Too much 'Deathstar services' koolaid was passed round a few years back, by some who should have known better.<br><br><br>I'd much rather write extensions in Java than C.Rasputnikhttp://rasputnik.myopenid.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4704664917418794835.post-35203794961744910342008-09-05T02:48:00.000-07:002008-09-05T02:48:00.000-07:00Speaking as somewhat of an outsider, the answer se...Speaking as somewhat of an outsider, the answer seems simple: With Python, there's one implementation, called "python," that defines the language. All the others, like stackless, jython, and ironpython, are clearly secondary. There's no power struggle because everyone agrees who leads.<br><br>JRuby is trying to push Ruby away from this model. What used to be "ruby" is now "MRI," and the JRuby implementors have pushed to redefine the language to avoid "hard things" (ObjectSpace, full continuations). If the eventual goal is to have many coequal implementations, then as each evolves there will inevitably be a power struggle. JRuby, as the implementation with the most (or at least loudest) corporate backing, catches the most flack from people in the ruby, er... "MRI" camp.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4704664917418794835.post-4866181541184898642008-09-05T03:27:00.000-07:002008-09-05T03:27:00.000-07:00Great post.And very true. A lot of rubyist looks a...Great post.<br><br>And very true. A lot of rubyist looks at JRuby as a toy or something that is only usable in java integration scenario. The fact that Ruby (and, yes, Rails) can actually learn something from the years of experience put down into java libraries and the JVM is important.Andershttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07016453166719236173noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4704664917418794835.post-7345753557856289912008-09-05T04:17:00.000-07:002008-09-05T04:17:00.000-07:00I don't think its exactly the elite view... im...I don't think its exactly the elite view... imagine a visual basic developer being asked to work on a project where a significant library is written in C (not that I'm likening rubyists to VBers). It's a departure from what you want to work on.<br><br>In the situation where its ruby and java, say your java library is internal. You might now need to bring in a java programmer to help - and they might view things in the same way, that they don't want to work with this ruby language. They want to do things the Java way.<br><br>Essentially the current rails/ruby talent probably doesn't want to touch mixed ruby/java projects, so new talent will have to come into that space.jemmywhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05749427918648116813noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4704664917418794835.post-66886311294865131792008-09-05T05:13:00.000-07:002008-09-05T05:13:00.000-07:00Never mind the naysayers. You are doing tremendous...Never mind the naysayers. You are doing tremendous work and should be proud of your accomplishments.<br><br>Jruby has been a boon to the ruby community if for no other reason than to spur the development of alternative runtimes.<br><br>Keep up the good work. There are many people you never hear from who are grateful for your efforts.<br><br>Don't listen to the naysayers.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4704664917418794835.post-64297026307599845772008-09-05T05:59:00.000-07:002008-09-05T05:59:00.000-07:00Maybe I should wear JRuby T-shirt in public (as I ...Maybe I should wear JRuby T-shirt in public (as I did in Japan) to show my interest and sympathy for JRuby.matzhttp://www.rubyist.net/~/matz/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4704664917418794835.post-80258497391601989912008-09-05T07:51:00.000-07:002008-09-05T07:51:00.000-07:00Ruby and JRuby can coexist. You are doing an amazi...Ruby and JRuby can coexist. You are doing an amazing job for the ruby community and I bet you have also gained a lot from this project professionally. <br><br>Having many interpreters helps the adoption and development of the language. I have seen many rubynious people pointing and fixing up bugs in the ruby-core mailing lists. <br><br>Of course many people wont be using JRuby because of a Java-phobia that is common around us; but also lots of people find this project useful and interesting.<br><br>As long as there is a consensus in the standard and all implementations adhere to the base ruby (YARV or MRI) i think everything will be ok.Giancarlo Bellidohttp://www.blogger.com/profile/12902557882230240444noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4704664917418794835.post-62040928978893458232008-09-05T08:20:00.000-07:002008-09-05T08:20:00.000-07:00You mentioned the lack of this hate in the Python ...You mentioned the lack of this hate in the Python community. I, myself, came to Ruby from Python. I chose it because of the consistency and relative increase in beauty in the language.<br><br>Maybe Python people don't mind Java because they've already accustomed themselves to a less-than-beautiful language.<br><br>Ruby people have something pretty cool going -- a very elegant language -- and don't want to see that change?jephthaihttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04825393985167655546noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4704664917418794835.post-66425035157218321212008-09-05T08:34:00.000-07:002008-09-05T08:34:00.000-07:00There's a name for such people: tossers.Some p...There's a name for such people: tossers.<br><br>Some people want the moon on a stick and when you give it to them they still grumble. Ignore them.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4704664917418794835.post-10699139825939250942008-09-05T09:03:00.000-07:002008-09-05T09:03:00.000-07:00It disappoints me to hear that you're taking t...It disappoints me to hear that you're taking this kind of flak for your work. Disappoints, but does not surprise. There are always folks who respond to change this way. And JRuby represents change. Flak like this means you're on the right track.<br><br>I dream of the day when the number of Ruby / Rails job postings comes close to, even surpasses, those for C#/.NET and J2EE. In my not-at-all humble opinion which derives from 20 years in the biz, JRuby represents the single best hope that Ruby, and by extension Rails, will become an accepted, perhaps even preferred, platform in Fortune 50 IT shops. And that's what has to happen for my dream to come true.<br><br>The single biggest obstacle to that dream is the IT Operations groups. Don't misunderstand me. They're not the "bad guys." They're the <i>over-worked and under-appreciated</i> guys who simply don't have and can't get the resources required to support another platform. Much less one with an architecture as different from their current one(s) as Rails / Mongrel clusters / Haproxy /etc. represents.<br><br>The work you're doing will make it possible for developers to work in a language they love without imposing new burdens on the Ops guys. To Ops, a JRuby / Rails app will look just like any other app running in a JVM. No change for them == many new opportunities for us.<br><br>I applaud you and the JRuby team. And I hope my applause and that from the rest of the folks out here who 'get it' will drown out the noise from those that don't.<br><br>Best regards,<br>BillBill Waltonnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4704664917418794835.post-22357240877679585842008-09-05T09:53:00.000-07:002008-09-05T09:53:00.000-07:00Having the option to use JRuby has made it easier ...Having the <i>option</i> to use JRuby has made it easier to choose Ruby / Rails as our standard in-house language and framework. It's creating Ruby jobs that might not otherwise have been there. Surely Rubyists have to consider that "beautiful".Roberthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10455043840032822410noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4704664917418794835.post-51006772771686262082008-09-05T11:04:00.000-07:002008-09-05T11:04:00.000-07:00jemmyw: But the current Ruby/Rails talent pool see...jemmyw: But the current Ruby/Rails talent pool seems to have no problem using shim wrappers over C libraries such as RMagick. Would those same people jump on ImageVoodo considering it's tremendously easier to get going (no compilation, actually works cross platform, etc.)? I think many people are totally fine with one set of problems and are unwilling to look at another environment with a better tradeoff, simply because of that J and the fear of being "uncool". Yeah, there's a definite clique'y "gotta be cool" vibe still in the Rails/Rubinius/(to a lesser degree Merb) community that is hurting Rails' reputation now, far more than it is helping.David Koontzhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17822604103265487717noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4704664917418794835.post-17737019668526485282008-09-05T11:18:00.000-07:002008-09-05T11:18:00.000-07:00The fault really falls with the Ruby community unf...The fault really falls with the Ruby community unfortunately. The post-Rails people are subjective, highly emotional, opinionated, and all those other things that DHH praises as virtues; it's clear your friend has been infected. Whatever happened to best tool for the job?<br><br>I'm sure you're doing great work Charles, so keep it up; don't let the bastards drag ya down!Ivanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00530381404081691368noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4704664917418794835.post-30872623475044915992008-09-05T11:28:00.000-07:002008-09-05T11:28:00.000-07:00All of us at GitHub are rooting for you guys. The...All of us at GitHub are rooting for you guys. The more Rubyists, the merrier.Chrishttp://github.com/defunktnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4704664917418794835.post-73802084592079659512008-09-05T12:00:00.000-07:002008-09-05T12:00:00.000-07:00I agree that the main values of Ruby runtimes like...I agree that the main values of Ruby runtimes like JRuby are what they provide access to. JRuby allows seamless access to the myriad Java libraries and many, many companies depend on these libraries. I think JRuby is critical for those companies.<br><br>I feel that the other runtimes also have very interesting appeal for the same reasons. IronRuby provides access to CLR libraries on the server OR (more interestingly to me) access to the DOM and Silverlight vector/animation engine in the browser.<br><br>MacRuby provides seamless access to the Objective-C frameworks of OS X in a highly performant way. If you want to make use of Ruby to use Cocoa, Core Animation, Core Image, Core Audio, etc you can do that incredibly well with MacRuby.<br><br>Rubinius provides something uniquely different and thats Ruby "all the way down" (mostly). I think that's awesome as a Rubyist.<br><br>I won't leave out Ruby 1.8.x and 1.9.x MRI which, of course, provide access to the platform of the operating system through C in a very nice and powerful way and one that has served the Ruby community for a dozen years.<br><br>At the end of the day Ruby is how Ruby behaves on MRI and I think that all the implementors of the runtimes are working overtime to get as close as possible to that. Sometimes there are differences, that happens, but this stuff is really hard and my hat is off to any and ALL folks that are working to implement a Ruby runtime.Rich Kilmernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4704664917418794835.post-36140875732782851122008-09-05T12:03:00.000-07:002008-09-05T12:03:00.000-07:00Hey Charles,I wouldn't think about such a comm...Hey Charles,<br><br>I wouldn't think about such a comment too much. There are smart people in the world that have their moments being a troll. It sounds like his anger isn't towards Java, but those developers that believe all languages are created equal. Recently I have been studying ActionScript 3, but my main focus isn't on the syntax, but what the language brings to the table and how things should be done. Much like any technology, you need to understand the strengths and weaknesses before you apply them. <br>Try to educate your buddy on the key differences of the languages. I'm sure if he's a smart fellow who respects your opinion, he'll leave learning something new from your conversation. Java isn't a perfect language, but the VM is amazing!<br><br>Keep up the great work and good job on making the JVM a platform!<br><br>Richard L. Burton IIIAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4704664917418794835.post-51200896759100937352008-09-05T12:39:00.000-07:002008-09-05T12:39:00.000-07:00yeah, invokedynamic to those naysayers...yeah, invokedynamic to those naysayers...Raphaël Valyihttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01805258585519968165noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4704664917418794835.post-36468620319216820612008-09-05T12:55:00.000-07:002008-09-05T12:55:00.000-07:00Charles,Where are some classic examples of wrappin...Charles,<br>Where are some classic examples of wrapping Java classes with JRuby classes? The samples provide a few limited examples (minijava's arraylist.rb, swing.rb). TIA!j2noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4704664917418794835.post-45553236550282598832008-09-05T13:08:00.000-07:002008-09-05T13:08:00.000-07:00Never mind the hataz! This looks like an inverted ...Never mind the hataz! This looks like an inverted form of the snobbery that used to be more frequently doled out by enthusiasts of compiled languages in respect to interpreted languages. In each case, people who aren't entirely comfortable working in another paradigm are hiding feelings of inferiority behind contemptuous bravado. I love JRuby too, in part because it offers a pragmatic resolution to such pointless language warring.<br><br>The best practices and fine points of style for interfacing between idiomatic Ruby and idiomatic Java will evolve over time.<br><br>Thanks for your work, Charles. You're helping to move the state of the art forward.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4704664917418794835.post-47078213471098647612008-09-05T13:37:00.000-07:002008-09-05T13:37:00.000-07:00Hi Charles,On the Internet there's always a si...Hi Charles,<br><br>On the Internet there's always a silent majority and a vocal minority.<br><br>I just wanted to say that I think you're doing a great job, and that I use JRuby in my projects.<br><br>Keep up the good work.Alexhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16185182738753954263noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4704664917418794835.post-35616300161685777942008-09-05T13:40:00.000-07:002008-09-05T13:40:00.000-07:00Charles,I'm a Java guy from way back. Ran a na...Charles,<br><br>I'm a Java guy from way back. Ran a national arm of your current employer in the field last century. Bill Joy used to pop in for pep talks. Right now I'm up to my eyes in PHP, which oddly I can live with in its OO form. But when it comes to scripting, Ruby is god. But I never run MRI, I just keep a copy of JRuby HEAD local and run with it. Even in Scite it's JRuby.<br><br>JRuby is a remarkable project.<br><br>Last year I was doing Java mobile phone stuff. We had JRuby all over the shop. It even seeped in to other projects. <br><br>JRuby is just behind Linux in terms of most important OSS projects, imo. And when push comes to shove, I could live without Linux.<br><br>Don't underestimate what you guys (inc. matz) have achieved.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4704664917418794835.post-79542513460032147242008-09-05T13:57:00.000-07:002008-09-05T13:57:00.000-07:00well man, honestly when i talk to friends about gr...well man, honestly when i talk to friends about great open source projects, i mention jruby, and when i talk about brilliant minds, i mention the ppl behind jruby... go on man thanks for u and ur team....khelllhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/13398340882612317196noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4704664917418794835.post-86135885733616657932008-09-05T15:01:00.000-07:002008-09-05T15:01:00.000-07:00There are really two issues here. First is the hos...There are really two issues here. First is the hostility of some poorly-behaved members of the Ruby community towards JRuby. (If I had to guess, I would say they probably came to Ruby post-Rails, and probably aren't all that experienced, by that's just pure speculation.)<br><br>To those people, I say, "don't let the door hit your ass on the way out." We don't need 'em, and shouldn't tolerate blind ignorance towards truly useful, productive projects like JRuby.<br><br>The other issue, though, is that of the Java/Ruby hybridization that can happens in some situations. While I can understand the pragmatics that lead to such code ending up in production, it's also a sign that there may be leakage of low-level implementation details into the business logic. <br><br>I would look equally askance at, say, Rails controllers which used RubyInline to do a bunch of FFI calls. Glue code like that, especially when it exposes system details that aren't important to a particular application, should be in their own library, with a clean, idiomatic API. (Hell, how else are you going to provide compatible JRuby and MRI adapters?)<br><br>Forcing someone to jump between Ruby and Java semantics mid-method is jarring, and may be a sign that you're missing an obvious place for a little abstraction.<br><br>Regardless, I hope you guys keep plugging away at JRuby for a long time. One of these days, it may even convince me to come back a little closer to the Java world. (I cut my teeth doing J2EE webapps, but have stayed pretty far away from Java-land for the last five years or so.)rcoderhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15044818722181140240noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4704664917418794835.post-62559874590098221302008-09-05T19:56:00.000-07:002008-09-05T19:56:00.000-07:00Hehe, maybe you should drop the J when people aren...Hehe, maybe you should drop the J when people aren't looking and just tell everyone you have a new Ruby implementation available that runs Rails, has native threading and is faster than MRI ;)djwhitthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16637389803678368613noreply@blogger.com